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Winds and different observing platforms.

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Ryan Leach, modified 5 Years ago.

Winds and different observing platforms.

Youngling Posts: 18 Join Date: 1/19/16 Recent Posts

All,

I know there has been a lot of discussion about winds recently and it took me a while to look this up, so I thought I would put it in a new thread. This is a link  to some conference proceedings from 2003, wherein a USFS Fire Lab meteorologist, former MSO SOO, and University of Montana researcher presented a quick study on differences in wind measurements from different platforms based on averaging period and sensor height.  I've also attached the PDF.

 

The key points are:

  • At lower wind speeds (< 7 m/s), sensor height plays the biggest role in determining wind speed, but there is a strong correlation (with high R-squared) between the wind speeds on sensors of different heights.
  • Above 7 m/s, the correlation between 2m avg and 10m avg wind speeds remains high, but the R-squared is around 0.6, indicating that there isn't a very good, simple relationship to convert one type of wind speed average into another with high fidelity.

So I think including wind speeds from different networks (METARS, RAWS, Mesonet, Dept. of Trans) is like comparing Red Delicious Apples and Crab Apples. Sure, they're both apples but they're still really different. And this doesn't even have anything to do with the quality of the siting of the sensors.

Historically we've always used forecasts calibrated to the METARS (to my knowledge). For example, MOS products have been calibrated to the METARS. When working with fire weather we've always had to make adjustments to the wind forecast to get a 20-ft, 10 min average wind speed.

 

So I think it's a good idea to match the winds to the METARS (and any other networks that measures 10 meter, 2 minute average winds).

Thanks,

Ryan - MSO

Attachments:

BM
Brian Miretzky, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: Winds and different observing platforms.

Youngling Posts: 47 Join Date: 1/8/13 Recent Posts
Hi Ryan,

I have added this to the RTMA "Good Enough" subgroup Google Drive folder - https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B2-WYnrUvh-Zb3B2WVpBNW9qa1k. This type of research did go into the subgroups final recommendations that are helping to drive how the RTMA/URMA is evolving and improving.

Thanks,

Brian Miretzky

On Sun, Dec 1, 2019 at 10:54 AM VLab Notifications <VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov> wrote:

All,

I know there has been a lot of discussion about winds recently and it took me a while to look this up, so I thought I would put it in a new thread. This is a link  to some conference proceedings from 2003, wherein a USFS Fire Lab meteorologist, former MSO SOO, and University of Montana researcher presented a quick study on differences in wind measurements from different platforms based on averaging period and sensor height.  I've also attached the PDF.

 

The key points are:

  • At lower wind speeds (< 7 m/s), sensor height plays the biggest role in determining wind speed, but there is a strong correlation (with high R-squared) between the wind speeds on sensors of different heights.
  • Above 7 m/s, the correlation between 2m avg and 10m avg wind speeds remains high, but the R-squared is around 0.6, indicating that there isn't a very good, simple relationship to convert one type of wind speed average into another with high fidelity.

So I think including wind speeds from different networks (METARS, RAWS, Mesonet, Dept. of Trans) is like comparing Red Delicious Apples and Crab Apples. Sure, they're both apples but they're still really different. And this doesn't even have anything to do with the quality of the siting of the sensors.

Historically we've always used forecasts calibrated to the METARS (to my knowledge). For example, MOS products have been calibrated to the METARS. When working with fire weather we've always had to make adjustments to the wind forecast to get a 20-ft, 10 min average wind speed.

 

So I think it's a good idea to match the winds to the METARS (and any other networks that measures 10 meter, 2 minute average winds).

Thanks,

Ryan - MSO


--
Ryan Leach RTMA/URMA Discussion Group Virtual Lab Forum https://vlab.noaa.gov/web/715073/home/-/message_boards/view_message/8321675 VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov

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