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Request/Question regarding PotThunder

JM
Joseph Moore, modified 8 Years ago.

Request/Question regarding PotThunder

Youngling Posts: 72 Join Date: 11/1/13 Recent Posts

With the convective season kicking off, I have a few questions/requests about PotThunder:

  1. Request: Could the PotThunder tool that is ran within FB please be available to run as a stand-alone smart tool?
  2. Question: What is the tool doing when it runs? I see in the development tracker there's mention of SREF, MOS, and LAMP, but... what's in the black box? What's the code? What is it doing for the extended period?
  3. Follow-up to my request: If there are several sources/weighting options being considered, could any stand-alone PotThunder smart tool incorporate some options to evaluate various options being considered so that the field could help provide feedback on which method might be best?
  4. Issue: FYI I got an error running the tool tonight - "ReplaceGriddedData aborted for PotThunder [...] Data Values Exceeded in Grid at coordinate 0,0 Value = -9.223372E18 MinAllowed = 0.0 MaxAllowed = 100.0"

Some background: Before ForecastBuilder, my technique within the PoWT paradigm was to use model CAPE to help me populate PotThunder. I have a whole "PotThunder" weather element group with sfc and BL0180/BL0255 cape values for all the guidance we have it for in GFE, plus the SREF cape probs... if there is other guidance that might be useful I'd love to know! (In typing this up I realized MOSGuide TstmProbXX is an element and that appears to be what the default FB tool is using which answers at least part of my question above, but I'm still interested in how models are weighted, any previous runs taken into account, etc.)

Kenneth Cook, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: Request/Question regarding PotThunder

Youngling Posts: 15 Join Date: 9/24/12 Recent Posts

 

I would like to add one, at least for us down here, the POT Thunder has been too low.  Several forecasters have mentioned this.  

I had several days in my 7 day run today that had no thunder in the grids, just showers.  A verification study that we did showed that for days that precipitation occurred in the forecast area during this time of year, that nearly 60% of those days included a severe weather report.  And while this week is expected to be cool and below normal, I think we will see thunderstorms and not showers.  We'll see.

Thanks,

Ken

AJ
Andy Just, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: Request/Question regarding PotThunder

Youngling Posts: 89 Join Date: 6/2/15 Recent Posts

All,

  First I want to apologize for no further traffic on this thread. 

  A quick overview on the current PotThunder population in ForecastBuilder. It uses a blend of MOSGuide, SPC SREF Calibrated Thunderstorm Probabilities and GLAMP Calibrated Thunderstorm Probabilities (whenever each are available). Bringing in these methods provide a level of science and statistics that was never there before. The previous method is still available, under the Edit menu -> PoT_Thunder. 

  A lot of people, including myself, have been looking into the probability of thunder conundrum. SPC has done some research on the SREF Calibrated Thunderstorm Probabilities, which go into the PotThunder calculation now, and have found that they are very reliable when looking at the observance of 1 lightning strike within a 40 km grid. However, because they are calibrated, they will come in lower than what we are use to.  On the flip side, without pure scientific research but going along the research that was done for aviation verification, I feel pretty confident the setting the probability of thunder to the PoP was too high.  So some balance is needed here, and I think that was borne out from Ken's findings.

  At ARX, we are experimenting with a modification to the Wx creation where if the PotThunder is within 20% of the PoP, the PotThunder is given the PoP "verbiage." On an aside, this could help simplify some of the mixed precipitation scenarios.  20% can help separate out those events where we would see thunder from any shower, and those where we should have lower thunder probabilities. Additionally, through the experimentation we found cases where you only want Isolated/Schc, so a hook has been thrown in to keep any PotThunder values <= 20 as Isolated.