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URMA Grid Oddity

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Joe Lester, modified 3 Years ago.

URMA Grid Oddity

Youngling Posts: 12 Join Date: 6/12/17 Recent Posts

Billings WFO here. We have an odd circular temp/RH/Td anomaly showing up in our URMA grids, and thus getting into NBM grids. It's in northern Rosebud county (north of Forsyth) and is in an area w/o any observations. I have attached an URMA MinRH image from March 2nd. As you can see it really stands out (it's actually donut-shaped). There is no terrain in that area that would cause such a shape of cooler temps, higher Tds, higher RHs.  There is a MT-MESO station (Ingomar NE) that is west of the donut, and I thought maybe it had an impact, but that station hasn't reported since Feb 4th.  Thoughts? I should also mention, this is a fairly new artifact. I noticed it perhaps a couple months ago. It could have coincided w/ version 4.0. Thanks for your help!

Attachments:

Attachment

MM
Matthew Morris, modified 3 Years ago.

RE: URMA Grid Oddity

Youngling Posts: 156 Join Date: 12/6/17 Recent Posts
Hi Joe,

The minRH analysis is derived using the hourly temperature, specific humidity, and pressure analyses from 18Z to 06Z.  Thus, observations are not directly used in deriving the minRH (and maxRH) analyses, although they will influence the hourly analyses.
The above slide deck shows the URMA 2 m T background and analysis fields from 18Z March 1st through 06Z March 2nd on slides 5-18.  Specific humidity figures are shown on slides 19-32.  These figures show that the artifact is originating in the first guess fields for the hourly analyses (left panel).

Slide 3 shows the downscaled HRRR and NAM Nest 2 m T forecasts used to derive the URMA background for 00Z March 2nd.  Slide 4 shows the 3-km resolution HRRR 2 m T forecast (prior to downscaling).  These slides indicate that the artifact is originating in the HRRR forecasts that are used to derive the RTMA/URMA background fields.

We are in contact with the HRRR developers for further insight.  Please let us know if you have any other questions.

Matt

On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 6:14 AM VLab Notifications <VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov> wrote:

Billings WFO here. We have an odd circular temp/RH/Td anomaly showing up in our URMA grids, and thus getting into NBM grids. It's in northern Rosebud county (north of Forsyth) and is in an area w/o any observations. I have attached an URMA MinRH image from March 2nd. As you can see it really stands out (it's actually donut-shaped). There is no terrain in that area that would cause such a shape of cooler temps, higher Tds, higher RHs.  There is a MT-MESO station (Ingomar NE) that is west of the donut, and I thought maybe it had an impact, but that station hasn't reported since Feb 4th.  Thoughts? I should also mention, this is a fairly new artifact. I noticed it perhaps a couple months ago. It could have coincided w/ version 4.0. Thanks for your help!


--
Joe Lester RTMA/URMA Discussion Group Virtual Lab Forum https://vlab.noaa.gov/web/715073/home/-/message_boards/view_message/13951427 VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov


Joe Lester, modified 3 Years ago.

RE: URMA Grid Oddity

Youngling Posts: 12 Join Date: 6/12/17 Recent Posts
Matt, I appreciate you looking into this. Have you heard anything from the HRRR developers yet?

Have a good one.

joe

On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 2:24 PM VLab Notifications <VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov> wrote:
Hi Joe,

The minRH analysis is derived using the hourly temperature, specific humidity, and pressure analyses from 18Z to 06Z.  Thus, observations are not directly used in deriving the minRH (and maxRH) analyses, although they will influence the hourly analyses.
The above slide deck shows the URMA 2 m T background and analysis fields from 18Z March 1st through 06Z March 2nd on slides 5-18.  Specific humidity figures are shown on slides 19-32.  These figures show that the artifact is originating in the first guess fields for the hourly analyses (left panel).

Slide 3 shows the downscaled HRRR and NAM Nest 2 m T forecasts used to derive the URMA background for 00Z March 2nd.  Slide 4 shows the 3-km resolution HRRR 2 m T forecast (prior to downscaling).  These slides indicate that the artifact is originating in the HRRR forecasts that are used to derive the RTMA/URMA background fields.

We are in contact with the HRRR developers for further insight.  Please let us know if you have any other questions.

Matt

On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 6:14 AM VLab Notifications <VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov> wrote:

Billings WFO here. We have an odd circular temp/RH/Td anomaly showing up in our URMA grids, and thus getting into NBM grids. It's in northern Rosebud county (north of Forsyth) and is in an area w/o any observations. I have attached an URMA MinRH image from March 2nd. As you can see it really stands out (it's actually donut-shaped). There is no terrain in that area that would cause such a shape of cooler temps, higher Tds, higher RHs.  There is a MT-MESO station (Ingomar NE) that is west of the donut, and I thought maybe it had an impact, but that station hasn't reported since Feb 4th.  Thoughts? I should also mention, this is a fairly new artifact. I noticed it perhaps a couple months ago. It could have coincided w/ version 4.0. Thanks for your help!


--
Joe Lester RTMA/URMA Discussion Group Virtual Lab Forum https://vlab.noaa.gov/web/715073/home/-/message_boards/view_message/13951427 VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov



--
Matthew Morris RTMA/URMA Discussion Group Virtual Lab Forum http://vlab.noaa.gov/web/715073/home/-/message_boards/view_message/13972121 VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov
Joe Lester, modified 3 Years ago.

RE: URMA Grid Oddity

Youngling Posts: 12 Join Date: 6/12/17 Recent Posts
Matt, a few of us here were having a discussion about the weird circle today and we have a theory or two.

Below is a modis image and there seems to be a circular feature that shows up on it in northern Rosebud county, at the location in question. It appears to be a rockier region, grayer in color, but interestingly it really stands out and is roughly the right shape. I also understand that the HRRR was updated in December and within the update was use of modis imagery and higher resolution land use features. We are wondering if that is the reason for the erroneously cooler and more humid circular region. Perhaps an error in the HRRR's interpretation of that spot?

image.png

Also, I am including a HRRR surface temp forecast on top of Clean IR imagery. You can see the anomalous cold spot that makes no sense. It looks like hills but there is no such topography there. It was also brought up that perhaps the HRRR is interpreting that spot as having snow cover or is water? Very weird.  We are also concerned about how such an erroneous cool spot could influence the HRRR's convective development in that area, in another 1-2 months, if it's not fixed.

image.png

Just wanted to pass this on in case it helps. Thanks again!

joe



n Wed, Mar 17, 2021 at 8:39 PM VLab Notifications <VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov> wrote:
Matt, I appreciate you looking into this. Have you heard anything from the HRRR developers yet?

Have a good one.

joe

On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 2:24 PM VLab Notifications <VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov> wrote:
Hi Joe,

The minRH analysis is derived using the hourly temperature, specific humidity, and pressure analyses from 18Z to 06Z.  Thus, observations are not directly used in deriving the minRH (and maxRH) analyses, although they will influence the hourly analyses.
The above slide deck shows the URMA 2 m T background and analysis fields from 18Z March 1st through 06Z March 2nd on slides 5-18.  Specific humidity figures are shown on slides 19-32.  These figures show that the artifact is originating in the first guess fields for the hourly analyses (left panel).

Slide 3 shows the downscaled HRRR and NAM Nest 2 m T forecasts used to derive the URMA background for 00Z March 2nd.  Slide 4 shows the 3-km resolution HRRR 2 m T forecast (prior to downscaling).  These slides indicate that the artifact is originating in the HRRR forecasts that are used to derive the RTMA/URMA background fields.

We are in contact with the HRRR developers for further insight.  Please let us know if you have any other questions.

Matt

On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 6:14 AM VLab Notifications <VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov> wrote:

Billings WFO here. We have an odd circular temp/RH/Td anomaly showing up in our URMA grids, and thus getting into NBM grids. It's in northern Rosebud county (north of Forsyth) and is in an area w/o any observations. I have attached an URMA MinRH image from March 2nd. As you can see it really stands out (it's actually donut-shaped). There is no terrain in that area that would cause such a shape of cooler temps, higher Tds, higher RHs.  There is a MT-MESO station (Ingomar NE) that is west of the donut, and I thought maybe it had an impact, but that station hasn't reported since Feb 4th.  Thoughts? I should also mention, this is a fairly new artifact. I noticed it perhaps a couple months ago. It could have coincided w/ version 4.0. Thanks for your help!


--
Joe Lester RTMA/URMA Discussion Group Virtual Lab Forum https://vlab.noaa.gov/web/715073/home/-/message_boards/view_message/13951427VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov



--
Matthew Morris RTMA/URMA Discussion Group Virtual Lab Forum http://vlab.noaa.gov/web/715073/home/-/message_boards/view_message/13972121VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov

--
Joe Lester RTMA/URMA Discussion Group Virtual Lab Forum http://vlab.noaa.gov/web/715073/home/-/message_boards/view_message/14134124VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov

Attachments:

Attachment

Attachment

MM
Matthew Morris, modified 3 Years ago.

RE: URMA Grid Oddity

Youngling Posts: 156 Join Date: 12/6/17 Recent Posts
Hi Joe,

Thanks for sharing your latest findings.  We've forwarded this information to the HRRR developers, who are still looking into this case.

Matt

On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 6:05 PM VLab Notifications <VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov> wrote:
Matt, a few of us here were having a discussion about the weird circle today and we have a theory or two.

Below is a modis image and there seems to be a circular feature that shows up on it in northern Rosebud county, at the location in question. It appears to be a rockier region, grayer in color, but interestingly it really stands out and is roughly the right shape. I also understand that the HRRR was updated in December and within the update was use of modis imagery and higher resolution land use features. We are wondering if that is the reason for the erroneously cooler and more humid circular region. Perhaps an error in the HRRR's interpretation of that spot?

image.png

Also, I am including a HRRR surface temp forecast on top of Clean IR imagery. You can see the anomalous cold spot that makes no sense. It looks like hills but there is no such topography there. It was also brought up that perhaps the HRRR is interpreting that spot as having snow cover or is water? Very weird.  We are also concerned about how such an erroneous cool spot could influence the HRRR's convective development in that area, in another 1-2 months, if it's not fixed.

image.png

Just wanted to pass this on in case it helps. Thanks again!

joe



n Wed, Mar 17, 2021 at 8:39 PM VLab Notifications <VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov> wrote:
Matt, I appreciate you looking into this. Have you heard anything from the HRRR developers yet?

Have a good one.

joe

On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 2:24 PM VLab Notifications <VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov> wrote:
Hi Joe,

The minRH analysis is derived using the hourly temperature, specific humidity, and pressure analyses from 18Z to 06Z.  Thus, observations are not directly used in deriving the minRH (and maxRH) analyses, although they will influence the hourly analyses.
The above slide deck shows the URMA 2 m T background and analysis fields from 18Z March 1st through 06Z March 2nd on slides 5-18.  Specific humidity figures are shown on slides 19-32.  These figures show that the artifact is originating in the first guess fields for the hourly analyses (left panel).

Slide 3 shows the downscaled HRRR and NAM Nest 2 m T forecasts used to derive the URMA background for 00Z March 2nd.  Slide 4 shows the 3-km resolution HRRR 2 m T forecast (prior to downscaling).  These slides indicate that the artifact is originating in the HRRR forecasts that are used to derive the RTMA/URMA background fields.

We are in contact with the HRRR developers for further insight.  Please let us know if you have any other questions.

Matt

On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 6:14 AM VLab Notifications <VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov> wrote:

Billings WFO here. We have an odd circular temp/RH/Td anomaly showing up in our URMA grids, and thus getting into NBM grids. It's in northern Rosebud county (north of Forsyth) and is in an area w/o any observations. I have attached an URMA MinRH image from March 2nd. As you can see it really stands out (it's actually donut-shaped). There is no terrain in that area that would cause such a shape of cooler temps, higher Tds, higher RHs.  There is a MT-MESO station (Ingomar NE) that is west of the donut, and I thought maybe it had an impact, but that station hasn't reported since Feb 4th.  Thoughts? I should also mention, this is a fairly new artifact. I noticed it perhaps a couple months ago. It could have coincided w/ version 4.0. Thanks for your help!


--
Joe Lester RTMA/URMA Discussion Group Virtual Lab Forum https://vlab.noaa.gov/web/715073/home/-/message_boards/view_message/13951427VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov



--
Matthew Morris RTMA/URMA Discussion Group Virtual Lab Forum http://vlab.noaa.gov/web/715073/home/-/message_boards/view_message/13972121VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov

--
Joe Lester RTMA/URMA Discussion Group Virtual Lab Forum http://vlab.noaa.gov/web/715073/home/-/message_boards/view_message/14134124VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov

--
Joe Lester RTMA/URMA Discussion Group Virtual Lab Forum http://vlab.noaa.gov/web/715073/home/-/message_boards/view_message/14144594VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov


Attachments:

Attachment

Attachment

MM
Matthew Morris, modified 3 Years ago.

RE: URMA Grid Oddity

Youngling Posts: 156 Join Date: 12/6/17 Recent Posts
Hi Joe,

We received a brief update from GSL regarding the artifact in Rosebud County, MT.  Based upon the shape of the terrain and land features, the artifact appears to be created by the terrain.  The main question that will require further investigation is whether the terrain should cause that much of an impact or if there is a bug that could require code changes.  GSL is hoping to take a closer look at the terrain data and identify when the issue is most prevalent.

We will keep you posted as we receive further updates from GSL regarding this matter.

Thanks,
-Matt

On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 4:53 PM VLab Notifications <VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov> wrote:
Hi Joe,

Thanks for sharing your latest findings.  We've forwarded this information to the HRRR developers, who are still looking into this case.

Matt

On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 6:05 PM VLab Notifications <VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov> wrote:
Matt, a few of us here were having a discussion about the weird circle today and we have a theory or two.

Below is a modis image and there seems to be a circular feature that shows up on it in northern Rosebud county, at the location in question. It appears to be a rockier region, grayer in color, but interestingly it really stands out and is roughly the right shape. I also understand that the HRRR was updated in December and within the update was use of modis imagery and higher resolution land use features. We are wondering if that is the reason for the erroneously cooler and more humid circular region. Perhaps an error in the HRRR's interpretation of that spot?

image.png

Also, I am including a HRRR surface temp forecast on top of Clean IR imagery. You can see the anomalous cold spot that makes no sense. It looks like hills but there is no such topography there. It was also brought up that perhaps the HRRR is interpreting that spot as having snow cover or is water? Very weird.  We are also concerned about how such an erroneous cool spot could influence the HRRR's convective development in that area, in another 1-2 months, if it's not fixed.

image.png

Just wanted to pass this on in case it helps. Thanks again!

joe



n Wed, Mar 17, 2021 at 8:39 PM VLab Notifications <VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov> wrote:
Matt, I appreciate you looking into this. Have you heard anything from the HRRR developers yet?

Have a good one.

joe

On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 2:24 PM VLab Notifications <VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov> wrote:
Hi Joe,

The minRH analysis is derived using the hourly temperature, specific humidity, and pressure analyses from 18Z to 06Z.  Thus, observations are not directly used in deriving the minRH (and maxRH) analyses, although they will influence the hourly analyses.
The above slide deck shows the URMA 2 m T background and analysis fields from 18Z March 1st through 06Z March 2nd on slides 5-18.  Specific humidity figures are shown on slides 19-32.  These figures show that the artifact is originating in the first guess fields for the hourly analyses (left panel).

Slide 3 shows the downscaled HRRR and NAM Nest 2 m T forecasts used to derive the URMA background for 00Z March 2nd.  Slide 4 shows the 3-km resolution HRRR 2 m T forecast (prior to downscaling).  These slides indicate that the artifact is originating in the HRRR forecasts that are used to derive the RTMA/URMA background fields.

We are in contact with the HRRR developers for further insight.  Please let us know if you have any other questions.

Matt

On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 6:14 AM VLab Notifications <VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov> wrote:

Billings WFO here. We have an odd circular temp/RH/Td anomaly showing up in our URMA grids, and thus getting into NBM grids. It's in northern Rosebud county (north of Forsyth) and is in an area w/o any observations. I have attached an URMA MinRH image from March 2nd. As you can see it really stands out (it's actually donut-shaped). There is no terrain in that area that would cause such a shape of cooler temps, higher Tds, higher RHs.  There is a MT-MESO station (Ingomar NE) that is west of the donut, and I thought maybe it had an impact, but that station hasn't reported since Feb 4th.  Thoughts? I should also mention, this is a fairly new artifact. I noticed it perhaps a couple months ago. It could have coincided w/ version 4.0. Thanks for your help!


--
Joe Lester RTMA/URMA Discussion Group Virtual Lab Forum https://vlab.noaa.gov/web/715073/home/-/message_boards/view_message/13951427VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov



--
Matthew Morris RTMA/URMA Discussion Group Virtual Lab Forum http://vlab.noaa.gov/web/715073/home/-/message_boards/view_message/13972121VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov

--
Joe Lester RTMA/URMA Discussion Group Virtual Lab Forum http://vlab.noaa.gov/web/715073/home/-/message_boards/view_message/14134124VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov

--
Joe Lester RTMA/URMA Discussion Group Virtual Lab Forum http://vlab.noaa.gov/web/715073/home/-/message_boards/view_message/14144594VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov



--
Matthew Morris RTMA/URMA Discussion Group Virtual Lab Forum http://vlab.noaa.gov/web/715073/home/-/message_boards/view_message/14156273VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov


Attachments:

Attachment

Attachment

Joe Lester, modified 3 Years ago.

RE: URMA Grid Oddity

Youngling Posts: 12 Join Date: 6/12/17 Recent Posts
Matt, thanks so much for the update. We are very curious to see what is found. It's definitely a bug because the previous version of the HRRR did not behave this way. Also, terrain impacts are negligible...I think it's more due to the surface characteristics in that area (and the model's interpretation thereof). The oddity is seen during the day and not so much at night. 

Thanks again!

joe
billings

On Fri, Apr 2, 2021 at 12:15 PM VLab Notifications <VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov> wrote:
Hi Joe,

We received a brief update from GSL regarding the artifact in Rosebud County, MT.  Based upon the shape of the terrain and land features, the artifact appears to be created by the terrain.  The main question that will require further investigation is whether the terrain should cause that much of an impact or if there is a bug that could require code changes.  GSL is hoping to take a closer look at the terrain data and identify when the issue is most prevalent.

We will keep you posted as we receive further updates from GSL regarding this matter.

Thanks,
-Matt

On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 4:53 PM VLab Notifications <VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov> wrote:
Hi Joe,

Thanks for sharing your latest findings.  We've forwarded this information to the HRRR developers, who are still looking into this case.

Matt

On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 6:05 PM VLab Notifications <VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov> wrote:
Matt, a few of us here were having a discussion about the weird circle today and we have a theory or two.

Below is a modis image and there seems to be a circular feature that shows up on it in northern Rosebud county, at the location in question. It appears to be a rockier region, grayer in color, but interestingly it really stands out and is roughly the right shape. I also understand that the HRRR was updated in December and within the update was use of modis imagery and higher resolution land use features. We are wondering if that is the reason for the erroneously cooler and more humid circular region. Perhaps an error in the HRRR's interpretation of that spot?

image.png

Also, I am including a HRRR surface temp forecast on top of Clean IR imagery. You can see the anomalous cold spot that makes no sense. It looks like hills but there is no such topography there. It was also brought up that perhaps the HRRR is interpreting that spot as having snow cover or is water? Very weird.  We are also concerned about how such an erroneous cool spot could influence the HRRR's convective development in that area, in another 1-2 months, if it's not fixed.

image.png

Just wanted to pass this on in case it helps. Thanks again!

joe



n Wed, Mar 17, 2021 at 8:39 PM VLab Notifications <VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov> wrote:
Matt, I appreciate you looking into this. Have you heard anything from the HRRR developers yet?

Have a good one.

joe

On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 2:24 PM VLab Notifications <VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov> wrote:
Hi Joe,

The minRH analysis is derived using the hourly temperature, specific humidity, and pressure analyses from 18Z to 06Z.  Thus, observations are not directly used in deriving the minRH (and maxRH) analyses, although they will influence the hourly analyses.
The above slide deck shows the URMA 2 m T background and analysis fields from 18Z March 1st through 06Z March 2nd on slides 5-18.  Specific humidity figures are shown on slides 19-32.  These figures show that the artifact is originating in the first guess fields for the hourly analyses (left panel).

Slide 3 shows the downscaled HRRR and NAM Nest 2 m T forecasts used to derive the URMA background for 00Z March 2nd.  Slide 4 shows the 3-km resolution HRRR 2 m T forecast (prior to downscaling).  These slides indicate that the artifact is originating in the HRRR forecasts that are used to derive the RTMA/URMA background fields.

We are in contact with the HRRR developers for further insight.  Please let us know if you have any other questions.

Matt

On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 6:14 AM VLab Notifications <VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov> wrote:

Billings WFO here. We have an odd circular temp/RH/Td anomaly showing up in our URMA grids, and thus getting into NBM grids. It's in northern Rosebud county (north of Forsyth) and is in an area w/o any observations. I have attached an URMA MinRH image from March 2nd. As you can see it really stands out (it's actually donut-shaped). There is no terrain in that area that would cause such a shape of cooler temps, higher Tds, higher RHs.  There is a MT-MESO station (Ingomar NE) that is west of the donut, and I thought maybe it had an impact, but that station hasn't reported since Feb 4th.  Thoughts? I should also mention, this is a fairly new artifact. I noticed it perhaps a couple months ago. It could have coincided w/ version 4.0. Thanks for your help!


--
Joe Lester RTMA/URMA Discussion Group Virtual Lab Forum https://vlab.noaa.gov/web/715073/home/-/message_boards/view_message/13951427VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov



--
Matthew Morris RTMA/URMA Discussion Group Virtual Lab Forum http://vlab.noaa.gov/web/715073/home/-/message_boards/view_message/13972121VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov

--
Joe Lester RTMA/URMA Discussion Group Virtual Lab Forum http://vlab.noaa.gov/web/715073/home/-/message_boards/view_message/14134124VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov

--
Joe Lester RTMA/URMA Discussion Group Virtual Lab Forum http://vlab.noaa.gov/web/715073/home/-/message_boards/view_message/14144594VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov



--
Matthew Morris RTMA/URMA Discussion Group Virtual Lab Forum http://vlab.noaa.gov/web/715073/home/-/message_boards/view_message/14156273VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov



--
Matthew Morris RTMA/URMA Discussion Group Virtual Lab Forum http://vlab.noaa.gov/web/715073/home/-/message_boards/view_message/14332451VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov

Attachments:

Attachment

Attachment

Joe Lester, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: URMA Grid Oddity

Youngling Posts: 12 Join Date: 6/12/17 Recent Posts

Anything new on the odd circle in northern Rosebud County? Thanks!   -joe

 

MM
Matthew Morris, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: URMA Grid Oddity

Youngling Posts: 156 Join Date: 12/6/17 Recent Posts
Hi Joe,

We have contacted the HRRR team again and hope they will soon share with us what they think may be causing the odd ring in Rosebud County, MT.  However, we should note that changes to the HRRR model are unlikely to occur at this point due to the upcoming moratorium on implementations and planned sunsetting of the HRRR model itself.  We expect this issue to be addressed within the ongoing RRFS development effort, with the new RRFS system replacing the HRRR and NAM systems in 2023.

Thanks,
Matt

On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 5:44 AM VLab Notifications <VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov> wrote:

Anything new on the odd circle in northern Rosebud County? Thanks!   -joe

 


--
Joe Lester RTMA/URMA Discussion Group Virtual Lab Forum https://vlab.noaa.gov/web/715073/home/-/message_boards/view_message/14978308 VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov
Joe Lester, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: URMA Grid Oddity

Youngling Posts: 12 Join Date: 6/12/17 Recent Posts

Hey Matt, is it possible for us to get in touch with the HRRR developer? We sure appreciate you looking into this, but we really need a fix. The grids produced by the NBM have this odd circle in them, daily, and we need to constantly go in and edit it out. It's a real issue for us, and I'd hate to have to deal with it for 2 more years. Plus there is the issue of convection produced by the HRRR and what impact it may have on that. Whatever it is was caused by the HRRR upgrade in early December, so it seems like something they should be able to identify. Thanks again for your help.    joe

MM
Matthew Morris, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: URMA Grid Oddity

Youngling Posts: 156 Join Date: 12/6/17 Recent Posts
Hi Joe,

I'd suggest reaching out to Craig Hartsough and Terra Ladwig directly.

Thanks,
Matt

On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 11:33 AM VLab Notifications <VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov> wrote:

Hey Matt, is it possible for us to get in touch with the HRRR developer? We sure appreciate you looking into this, but we really need a fix. The grids produced by the NBM have this odd circle in them, daily, and we need to constantly go in and edit it out. It's a real issue for us, and I'd hate to have to deal with it for 2 more years. Plus there is the issue of convection produced by the HRRR and what impact it may have on that. Whatever it is was caused by the HRRR upgrade in early December, so it seems like something they should be able to identify. Thanks again for your help.    joe


--
Joe Lester RTMA/URMA Discussion Group Virtual Lab Forum https://vlab.noaa.gov/web/715073/home/-/message_boards/view_message/15104346 VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov


--
Matthew Morris
SRG at NOAA/NWS/NCEP/EMC
5830 University Research Ct., Rm. 2038
College Park, MD 20740
301-683-3758
Joe Lester, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: URMA Grid Oddity

Youngling Posts: 12 Join Date: 6/12/17 Recent Posts

Matt, thanks for the info.  Also, whatever is infecting the HRRR is also getting into the RRFS (see my attached 2m RH image). Something to do w/ the surface characteristics being assimilated into the models? This seems like a good thing, not tied to the HRRR directly. If the issue is resolved, it should fix the HRRR & RRFS. I will get in touch w/ the people you suggested tomorrow.

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Matthew Morris, modified 2 Years ago.

RE: URMA Grid Oddity

Youngling Posts: 156 Join Date: 12/6/17 Recent Posts
Hi Joe,

After communicating the issue to Jacob Carley, it was determined that the figure you shared is from the RRFS run at GSL, which uses the RUC LSM (land surface model).  The EMC runs use the Noah LSM.  The following figure from the corresponding EMC run (same cycle and valid time) does not show the feature over Rosebud County, MT.  The final RRFS will use the Noah-MP LSM, so we will need to verify that the feature is absent once final testing begins.

image.png

Thanks,
Matt

On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 5:45 PM VLab Notifications <VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov> wrote:

Matt, thanks for the info.  Also, whatever is infecting the HRRR is also getting into the RRFS (see my attached 2m RH image). Something to do w/ the surface characteristics being assimilated into the models? This seems like a good thing, not tied to the HRRR directly. If the issue is resolved, it should fix the HRRR & RRFS. I will get in touch w/ the people you suggested tomorrow.


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Joe Lester RTMA/URMA Discussion Group Virtual Lab Forum https://vlab.noaa.gov/web/715073/home/-/message_boards/view_message/15112011VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov

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  • 2011 RTMA Paper (Weather and Forecasting)

    The most recent peer-reviewed paper on the RTMA. Published in Weather and Forecasting in 2011.
    7 Visits

  • Public RTMA/URMA Viewer

    Another viewer of the current RTMA/URMA, with an archive going back 24 hours. This version is open to the public, but does not contain information about the (many) restricted obs used.
    52 Visits

  • RAP downscaling conference preprint (23rd IIPS)

    This link is to a presentation from the (then) RUC group on how the downscaling process works. Although we now use the RAP, HRRR, and NAM, the logic of the downscaling code is mostly unchanged from this point.
    2 Visits