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RE: URMA temperature near Santa Barbara, CA

JD
John Dumas, modified 5 Years ago.

URMA temperature near Santa Barbara, CA

Youngling Posts: 4 Join Date: 9/24/12 Recent Posts
Hi,

We have a recurring problem that the temperature in URMA is too low in downtown Santa Barbara by as much as 5 degrees.  We have verified the BFXC1 sensor is good and representative of the area.

We can see that the ob for Santa Barbara (BFXC1) is getting in to URMA by looking at the KML file and on the veritas page.

Here is an example from July 28th:
In Google Earth, we see that it is good (green), with an ob value of 78.  (I don't know what the much lower BG value and Anl value are indicating?)

image.png

Looking to the southeast of BFXC1, I see two obs over the water.  They both have a station of ID with NTBC1 but are from different providers.  The air temperature value there is 65.9.  

Could it be that URMA resolution at the land/water boundary is such that the ocean temp (grid) is bringing down the BFXC1 (grid) too much?  How much to the neighboring boxes affect a grid's value?

image.png


This is what the grid boxes look like in the viewer.  The air temp of the ocean grid is 61.5 and the Santa Barbara grid is 75.

image.png

-John
John Dumas
Science and Operations Officer
NWS Weather Forecast Office Oxnard, CA
(805) 988-6624
SL
Steven Levine, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: URMA temperature near Santa Barbara, CA

Youngling Posts: 174 Join Date: 11/13/14 Recent Posts
Hi John,

BG value is the background/first guess value, and ANL value is the analysis value.  So in this case, the background was a bit too cold over Santa Barbara.  The background is a downscaled 1-hour HRRR forecast valid at analysis time, a NAM-nest forecast is blended in for temperature as well.  The values in the KML file are interpolated to a point, they are not simply grid box values.

NTBC1 does appear twice, this is due to a quick in our obs processing system.  We get that ob both through NDBC and through MADIS, but the system is not capable of identifying them both as the same ob.  This has happened in other coastal areas, we end up flagging one of them for non-use and I will do that here.

In RTMA/URMA, the difference between the ob and background is supposed to be spread across areas at a similar terrain level; there is an escarpment forming a land-water boundary to ensure that this influence does not cross that boundary.  You can see how this plays out by looking at the URMA-URMA FG layer on the veritas viewer (see attachment from 00Z on the 28th).  This is described more in the system documentation that is linked on the VLab page.

It will be a couple days before I can fully analyze this case due to computer issues here, but I can give some general guidance.  Based on the ob layout here, I would not be stunned if there are land-based obs that the RTMA thinks are over water or vice-versa, and obviously that can cause a problem; the NTBC1 obs did come in cooler than the background at this time, and it looks like their influence is spreading inland a bit too far.  When dealing with a small/narrow land area between mountains and the water, it's a bit harder for the system to spread out the influence of a particular ob; you're counterparts up and down the West Coast can attest to this.

Hopefully this helps.  I should be able to get you more info later this week once our dev computer is handed back to us.

Steve

On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 5:35 PM VLab Notifications <VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov> wrote:
Hi,

We have a recurring problem that the temperature in URMA is too low in downtown Santa Barbara by as much as 5 degrees.  We have verified the BFXC1 sensor is good and representative of the area.

We can see that the ob for Santa Barbara (BFXC1) is getting in to URMA by looking at the KML file and on the veritas page.

Here is an example from July 28th:
In Google Earth, we see that it is good (green), with an ob value of 78.  (I don't know what the much lower BG value and Anl value are indicating?)

image.png

Looking to the southeast of BFXC1, I see two obs over the water.  They both have a station of ID with NTBC1 but are from different providers.  The air temperature value there is 65.9.  

Could it be that URMA resolution at the land/water boundary is such that the ocean temp (grid) is bringing down the BFXC1 (grid) too much?  How much to the neighboring boxes affect a grid's value?

image.png


This is what the grid boxes look like in the viewer.  The air temp of the ocean grid is 61.5 and the Santa Barbara grid is 75.

image.png

-John
John Dumas
Science and Operations Officer
NWS Weather Forecast Office Oxnard, CA
(805) 988-6624

--
John Dumas RTMA/URMA Discussion Group Virtual Lab Forum http://vlab.noaa.gov/web/715073/home/-/message_boards/view_message/7263525VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov
SL
Steven Levine, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: URMA temperature near Santa Barbara, CA

Youngling Posts: 174 Join Date: 11/13/14 Recent Posts
John,

A few things going on here:
The background does not pick up well on the temperature gradients here, which is to be expected with a 3 km system.  The overall pattern still originates with the background field, and although we have made adjustments to give obs more weight when they differ from the background and are in narrow valleys like this, it doesn't help that there are many other obs nearby that have an influence here.  You can see in the attached deck that the background field is based pretty much on the terrain here, there are no other local influences.

A note about the land/water mask: It's not a hard wall, and there is some cross-influence.  This is by design; at one point we did have a hard wall and that led to zero-increment lines along the coast, making for a very odd looking analysis.  If you look towards the end of the deck, you will see where the boundary is.

It looks like what happened is that BFXC1 got caught between two increment areas, and because of that the temperature of that grid box did not change very much.  A few other things going on:
It appears that one of the NTBC1 obs has an overlapping location with a Weatherflow ob; this is the location that will stay unflagged.  That location is 34.4 N, 116.69 W.  This is due to a rounding issue in the making of these files, a more precise location actually goes into the system.  The NTBC1 location to the east will be flagged.
One of the obs west of the city, UP619, is from the Union Pacific Railroad.  Obs from this network have a history of being much warmer than their surroundings; this appears to be because they are cited close to the ground near the tracks to detect heat kinks.  Many offices have asked us to remove UPRR obs, we can remove this one too, if you want.  C9548 also appears to have some influence and, for this cycle, came in well above the background value.

In the last slide I have ob/analysis/background values for several obs and mask values at their respective ob points.  It's worth pointing out that for many of these grid boxes, the grid is part land, part water.  That can lead to obs being washed out a bit, especially when many obs are bundled so close together as they are here.

I point out that the area we are talking about is very small spatially, and there are likely at least a few cases of several obs of differing values being in the same grid box.  Obviously a grid box value isn't going to match all of them.  For example, KP44 is 1 km west of XLED/NTBC1.

When you have a couple grid boxes of distance to work with, you can get some improvement. For example, the distance between the points where increments are strongest is only about 6 km (< 3 grid boxes), and the temperature distance between them moves from 12 F to 17 F between background and analysis; their observed difference was about 20 F.

In short, when we are looking at this sort of scale, we are running up against what the RTMA is capable of resolving.

Hopefully this helps,
Steve


On Mon, Aug 5, 2019 at 10:46 AM Steven Levine - NOAA Affiliate <steven.levine@noaa.gov> wrote:
Hi John,

BG value is the background/first guess value, and ANL value is the analysis value.  So in this case, the background was a bit too cold over Santa Barbara.  The background is a downscaled 1-hour HRRR forecast valid at analysis time, a NAM-nest forecast is blended in for temperature as well.  The values in the KML file are interpolated to a point, they are not simply grid box values.

NTBC1 does appear twice, this is due to a quick in our obs processing system.  We get that ob both through NDBC and through MADIS, but the system is not capable of identifying them both as the same ob.  This has happened in other coastal areas, we end up flagging one of them for non-use and I will do that here.

In RTMA/URMA, the difference between the ob and background is supposed to be spread across areas at a similar terrain level; there is an escarpment forming a land-water boundary to ensure that this influence does not cross that boundary.  You can see how this plays out by looking at the URMA-URMA FG layer on the veritas viewer (see attachment from 00Z on the 28th).  This is described more in the system documentation that is linked on the VLab page.

It will be a couple days before I can fully analyze this case due to computer issues here, but I can give some general guidance.  Based on the ob layout here, I would not be stunned if there are land-based obs that the RTMA thinks are over water or vice-versa, and obviously that can cause a problem; the NTBC1 obs did come in cooler than the background at this time, and it looks like their influence is spreading inland a bit too far.  When dealing with a small/narrow land area between mountains and the water, it's a bit harder for the system to spread out the influence of a particular ob; you're counterparts up and down the West Coast can attest to this.

Hopefully this helps.  I should be able to get you more info later this week once our dev computer is handed back to us.

Steve

On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 5:35 PM VLab Notifications <VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov> wrote:
Hi,

We have a recurring problem that the temperature in URMA is too low in downtown Santa Barbara by as much as 5 degrees.  We have verified the BFXC1 sensor is good and representative of the area.

We can see that the ob for Santa Barbara (BFXC1) is getting in to URMA by looking at the KML file and on the veritas page.

Here is an example from July 28th:
In Google Earth, we see that it is good (green), with an ob value of 78.  (I don't know what the much lower BG value and Anl value are indicating?)

image.png

Looking to the southeast of BFXC1, I see two obs over the water.  They both have a station of ID with NTBC1 but are from different providers.  The air temperature value there is 65.9.  

Could it be that URMA resolution at the land/water boundary is such that the ocean temp (grid) is bringing down the BFXC1 (grid) too much?  How much to the neighboring boxes affect a grid's value?

image.png


This is what the grid boxes look like in the viewer.  The air temp of the ocean grid is 61.5 and the Santa Barbara grid is 75.

image.png

-John
John Dumas
Science and Operations Officer
NWS Weather Forecast Office Oxnard, CA
(805) 988-6624

--
John Dumas RTMA/URMA Discussion Group Virtual Lab Forum http://vlab.noaa.gov/web/715073/home/-/message_boards/view_message/7263525 VLab.Notifications@noaa.gov